An open complaint to the list server admins
 

Dear List Server Network,

I have recently started to look into allocating bandwidth into starting my own list server network and I was flatly refused when I asked for the list server program itself.

After doing a bit of thinking, I have concluded that you are just trying to conserve the nature of JJ2 by only having one network where people fall under the supreign rule of people who are supposed to be gods. This is not the case for other networks, however.

If we put this North American list servers that are networked to the big uber super list server of DEATH against the number of IRC servers in the EFNet network, we will get some big results:

[IMG]http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3932/lists10rf.th.png[/IMG]

The A represents Mono's server, the house represents my house.

Now, imagine that the list servers are an IRC network that's newly started. Suppose you start to get flooded with requests to link to a new server, supposedly to spread the word in that particular area. You can either allow them to do so, or flatly refuse them.

Judging by the look on your face, of COURSE you'll say no. This is because of the following reasons:

1. You are overly concerned about the safety of your network, which is a bit too careful
2. You think that the bandwidth is distributed evenly enough
3. You might be xenophobes

Well, maybe some people want your code for the server you're using, probably to start their own network or help fix up exploits. And you'll still flatly refuse them, backed by the list of stuff above. This is exactly the case with the current list server network you are running.

Now, let's compare developmental standards. Nebula is working on a new list program (closed), whereas Whats-His-Face is working on an IRCd (open). Suppose both of our friends find an exploit in their software. Since Nebula's list server's a closed-source program, he or a friend of his will need to work for hours or even days to close the loophole. However, since Whats-His-Face has his code open-source, a large group of programmers gather in a chat room somewhere and end up fixing the program in a few hours. So, at the end of the day, WHF has fixed his loophole faster with the help of contributors, whereas our friend Nebula could still be working on it.

Lastly, users and administrators. I will be using #jj2 for the IRC example. Suppose a hazardous user comes into the channel/list server and starts to do some activity (eg, spam, hacking, etc). Both the ops and admins will boot the user, but this is not always the case. #jj2's operators will often boot people on a whim. In this case, you are better.

Overall, my comparison proves that the system presented by a typical IRC server is more friendly than the system that you have presented. I'm sorry to say this, but the truth hurts.

Thankfully not yours,
Peter S. Conway

I believe in open-source software, and I also feel that the list server software should fall into that category. However, Nebula has every right not to release it and especially not to give it to you. Sabotaging the existing network and (angering) just about every JJ2 player is no way to make a good impression, Dr. J.

And there are of course flaws with your reasoning. Compare the number of EFNet users to the number of active JJ2 players. We could get by with just one server, and certainly don't need more than two.

Nevertheless, I think Nebula should release his software, especially if he is no longer actively developing it. I know that others agree with this. I also know that you would be able to positively contribute, as long as you keep your emotions out of it and try to work as part of a team.

I would be all for expanding the list server network, but unfortunately the gains to doing so are nowhere near as significant to the downsides.

Finding availability has usually been the biggest challange for coming up with new list servers. The servers don't require much in terms of performance, but they do require the ability to remain on for long periods of times.

As Link mentioned, there's a rather large difference is your comparison between the list server network, and the EFnet IRC network -- that being an issue of scale. EFnet has over 70000 users connected to it. The list server network on the other hand hasn't had more than 10 for quite a while. So while the list server network may have been designed to be a distributed network like IRC, it certainly doesn't require it. One list server could easily handle a lot more activity than what it gets now.

There is also the problem that while the list server network may have been designed to work as a distributed system, it wasn't actually implemented all that well. Problems can start to occur when there are more than two list servers in the network. We discovered this when contrabandent, nimrod-online, and madskills were all online. Also, JJ2's handling of multiple servers doesn't work too well when one is down. And we're also familiar with the annoyances of list server patches whenever the list of list servers changes.

I agree with the point about projects being open source being possibly quicker to develop and bug fix. I would like it if Nebula allowed more people to work on his clone of the list server, but instead he hasn't worked on it much more even by himself, and so we've had to discontinue use of his server.

I'm afraid I fail to see what point you are trying to make with your comparison of the list server network and #jj2.

I think you're right that IRC networks are better than the list server network, but I'm afraid we don't have as many options to improve the list server network.

The game is nearly dead.
There is not much people playing on it anyway,so there is no need for 2.

ZOMG! IT'S PART TWO! EXCLAMATION MARKS!

Dear power abuser(s),

I recently took the time to review your list server rules.
Allow me to comment on them.

"Keep the service working as well as possible."

Does the presence of N*mrod seem to be hindering you? IMO, it is.

"If something by a user needs to be changed, change it in the most reasonably minimal way."

You mean replacing stuff like "Crashers are ghey!!!11one" with "Server Number 1"? Hooray for censorship. I only thought it existed here and in the United States.

"If a server is listed, but cannot be joined, then remove it from the list after a reasonable amount of time (like a few minutes)."

Nebula's list server does that, thus rendering that task useless.

"Don't change any of the server names, unless it conflicts with the other rules."

See above note on censorship.

"Keep the servers within legal bounds."

Do explain why I got a link to Jazz3D, then.

"Obviously, the primary function of the JJ2 list server is to list the current JJ2 game servers so that they can be retrieved by JJ2 clients. ... For example, if someone was performing a DoS attack on the server, and the attack was such that others couldn't use the server, then it would be right to ban the attacker."

You mean the list server? I have not once seen the list servers go down, except for maintenance and connection cycling.

I'm going to skip the thing on Dead Servers because it is possibly the only sane rule you have.

"In the case that a game server name somehow interferes with the service, it should be altered only so far as it needs to in order for it to no longer be an interference. For example, a game server name contains some special characters that mess up the list."

Nebula has also taken care of that. YAY.

The blank server name thing is fine. I thought that the dead server thing was sane as well. Hopefully this will be the last time.

"It is necessary for the service to remain within legal bounds because otherwise it could be shut down by legal action."

See above the notice about the link to JJ3D. Also, that server just happened to be Overlord's. PWNED!!

"The list server service was made to work as a network of list servers. All servers must maintain the same set of rules/protocols/whatever, because otherwise the network will fall apart."

As of now, there are two networks.

The "original" Jazz network - jazz.contrabandent.com, formerly jazz.logicware.com. Since nobody uses it, there is little need to go there.

The "sadly unofficial" Jazz network - split between jazz.n*mrod-online.com and jazz.madskills.org. Power is abused in some of the most rediculous ways possible.

Which one do you think follows the rules? Both of them. Which one do you think enforces them to the point where it's rediculous? The unofficial one.

"Any attempts to damage or degrade the service can be considered abuse. Any user actions that require repeated administrator intervention can also be considered a form of abuse. If an administrator finds it necessary, they can block a user from the service such that it prevents their abuse."

Does that involve crashing servers? Because I see in no way that it disrupts your service. The only service it interferes with is your client's, who are providing the servers that the people will be playing on. You are in no way related to what goes on with the servers, just the lists. Which reminds me, if I do start a new list server network, then I'll just tell users to use PeerGuardian or whatever to prevent crashes on the services provided by them.

"There are two types of administrators: local and global."

Global administrator: Nimrod
Local administrators: Monolith and Nimrod

"The purpose of a local administrator is to make sure that their server continues to work with the rest of the list server network. Local admins should not be allowed to change anything that affects the entire network. The only thing I can think of right now that"

Hooray for incomplete sentences. They are so good that

"The purpose of a global admin is to maintain the list server network as a whole. A global admin should be able to log into any of the list servers on the network and perform any global operation. Global operations may involve modifying the current list of game servers, modifying the current list of servers among the list server network, or changing any other setting that would affect the entire network."

I smell power abuse.

"You'll notice there's nothing there about personal attack servers. Nothing besides server names should remain as unaltered as possible. The reason for this is because personal attacks have nothing to do with the functionality of the service."

See above comment about the renaming of servers. OMG U LIEZ!!!!11

In conclusion, I have thus proven that you are both trying to enforce rules that do not apply to your list servers whatsoever. Let me get this into your heads in case you've denied it already: Crashes on servers do not affect the list service that you are providing. You do NOT own the servers that are on the lists.

By the way, please send the Epic/Nebula list server program to certifiedunknownfile@gmail.com, in addition to $900 Canadian dollars needed for a stable computer, $50/month for my internet service, $40 for a new router, and $100 for electrical bills. I'll be more than happy to contribute to the community by hosting a new server network that just about anyone can join in on.*

Thank you for your time.

Proving you wrong,
Peter S. Conway.

* Actually, the only needed equipment is the computer and router.

Dear Peter S. Conway,

I think nimrod and monolith do a good enough job. Please dont be so angry at them :(. You need to calm down.

Sincerely,
Michael C. Gagno

We all have a wonderful list of people who we think are stupid. Nimrod is probably on a few lists. So are you. So is *picks someone at random* Dino. One man's opinion is not enough to "prove" something is wrong.
Changes like "Crashers (are awesome)" still shows what the original intent was - "Server Number 1" removes the offense.
So, um, a list server shouldn't be able to do something another list server does? I guess it is rather rude of Nimrod's list server to list servers, isn't it?
...you must be joking. Please be joking. How can anyone possibly prevent links from being given in servers? Do you honestly expect Nimrod to monitor every line of text in every server and block them before other people can see them?

I think this refers to servers, which I believe DoS attacks can be performed upon. In any case, would you complain against a rule stating "Wakeman is not allowed to come to Nimrod's house and murder him with a blunt knife" simply because it has never happened?
The last time that... what? That you like a rule? Surely it is telling that you WANT the rules to be bad.
You are ignoring the word "degrade", which renders your argument pointless. Of course they are related to what goes on witb the servers - didn't you notice that stuff earlier about illegal activity?
This is a groundless complaint. You are complaining that someone is able to control something they run. The CAPABILITY of power abuse is different from the ACTION.
It's, um, extremely poorly worded, but notice this part:
"Nothing besides server names should remain as unaltered as possible."
As the grammatical reading of that sentence makes no sense at all, it's my guess that "nothing" is supposed to be "everything", or some such, meaning that they change nothing but server names.
You attribute the list of rules you are quoting to be "list server rules". Surely the list server rules apply to the list server?
Degrade, degrade, degrade. And I won't bother with your request for money.

ahahahahah your middle name starts with a c

UnknownFile, it's a silly bunny rabbit game on the internet. Find something worthwhile to complain about because of your teenage anti-authority complex, or invest time doing something directly useful for the community like you kind of were before.

The servers crashed are on Mono and Nim's network, and it is detrimental to the network if none of the clients they provide that service for can function because of attacks. It is a community-wide problem, and it is only natural that in their positions they would want to lend a helping hand.

I don't think you understand what real power abuse can entail. If they were closing servers because someone they have a grudge against is in one, renaming players themselves, only allowing their friends to host servers, randomly deciding not to allow anyone to play, or a myriad of other things, maybe you would have a case. It seems right now you are the only person who remotely cares about this, and moreover I can't imagine playing on server run by an individual such as you, because you'd likely abuse that power more than either Mono or Nim would.

I was gonna make a semi long post until I read this one and agreed with it.

You'll have to explain further how you believe the presence of Nimrod is hindering the service.


I still stand by these rules.


Nebula's list server was made to comply with these rule.


An illegal link shouldn't be something you got from the list servers. Although if it was a case where the URL was given as the name of a server, then that would be an appropriate case for the list server admins to rename that server, because the server name could be considered violating this rule.


The list server jazz.contrabandent.com was removed from the network because it's flakey service was disrupting the service of the network.


It is true that this does not account for crashing game servers. This draft of the rules was written before I concented to the first network banning of a user for mass disruption of games listed on the list servers.


If the local and global administrator functions were actually implemented, then both Nimrod and I would start out as both global and local admins. But as it is now, the features don't yet exist for these administrative levels to be put into action. And I don't know why there's an incomplete sentence in the part about local admins.


I agree with you that what happens in the game servers does not effect the list server network. However, since the incident with Orbitz, I have come to realize that if it happens that the list server network can aid the community in thwarting consistant attackers, then it would be better for the list server network to take rather than do nothing at all.

I think it goes without saying that the history of giving programs to just one person (Megawarp, Ultrawarp, several other things ending with "Warp") is, well, not so hot.

Besides, if I recall correctly, haven't you been warned for abusing harassment programs?

Your personal vendettas are not relevant to the functioning of this list server and for Christsakes stop saying "ZOMG."

mike is the new king of funny posts

Sorry, I don't listen to people who think they are in control of other people's lives.

omg personal attack

you mean nim's

Boo hoo. Go kick people for random and useless reasons in #jj2.

Aha, ahahahaha hahaha hahahahaha ahhahaha you're hilarious. You should join the nearest comedy club or something.

How about actually replying to Spaztic's post instead of making a bad attempt at mocking it so people won't notice he's right and you're wrong?

Um... Spaztic isn't really known for kicking people with nonsense reasons in #jj2. That's iCeD's job and at least when he does it it's funny. Just because you hold a nonsensical grudge against #jj2 and it's administration doesn't mean you can ignore any and all logic.

Dear UF,

I swear to god, if you come to the next EC meeting, which I will be attending I will beat the crap out of you. Stop whining about power abuse. If you respect the admins, don't get all jealous that you can't have the listservers, and don't get all, "DUDEZZZZ WE GOTZZA REBELLLL!!! F THA SYSTAM!!!!!!!" then people won't have a problem with you. As Spaztic said, it's a freaking rabbit game. Nimrod kindly hosts the listservers so a bunch of ungrateful pre-teens can whine about it?

I am so (-) at your ignorance, UF. If you're ever at a JJ2 meeting and acting like this, I will beat your (-) down. I will destroy you. Don't even think I can't. I'm probably stronger than 95% of the community ever since I started playing football and wrestling. I had to lift weights because those sports require physical strength, and I can make out at 210 pounds now. I could crush you like a bug. You will bow down to my almighty wrath, mortal.

edit: hahaha, I meant max out. oh man, i'm keeping that typo because it's hilarious.

I know it seems dumb to say on the internet, but it just feels so good knowing I could kick your anus.

While I don't doubt you could kick UF's anus, as a Ju-jitsu student I'd like to point out the knowledge and skill of fighting is just as important as (if not more than) strength when it comes to anus kicking.

Yes, I know that. I don't doubt you could kick my anus if you're an experienced ju-jitsu student. =P I'm just really good at wrestling and can pin people about 50 pounds heavier than me. I doubt UF knows how to fight, though.

Ah, well that settles that.

Yo Ninja, let's arm wrestle at the next meeting. ;D

I'm an awesome arm wrestler, by the way. =P
*hugs magoo* long time no see.

Thank you Ninja for taking this thread off-topic.

Ninja: Stop being an internet tough guy, this thread is for unknownfile to post well thought-out complaints about the list server admins. Go find another thread to assert your manliness in. Or better yet, another forum.

Unknownfile: Please keep posting, I enjoy reading this thread.

UNKNOWNFILE is to this thread as Gene Ray is to timecube.com.

Start listening to people who think they are in control of other people's lives.

You are taking this thread off topic Sir. and you cannot beat the power of ZOMG.

Dude, shut up. Seriously. No one finds you funny.

Alright, since nobody wants to stay on topic...

I SUMMON THE UNHOLY POWERS OF LINK TO CLOSE AND DELETE THIS THREAD

If you would like this thread to be on topic, I suggest replying to the points raised by myself, Spaztic, or Monolith. Also, I (and possibly others) would prefer it if that reply contained logical agreements or disagreements to the points contained within the text being replied to, preferably based on objective truths.

I agree. There's no reason to close this, though I implore people to stay on topic.

UF, I don't understand why you are so ticked off at Nimrod. He is responsible for the list servers and has to maintain them for a service for other people.

Have you been a moderator for a forum? How about a group? I am an assistant manager for a MSN group, and I value my responsibility (So much, in fact, that when I got promoted, I sent the manager a email stating that I would not change any settings unless I have his permission)

It takes a responsible person to manage systems. Do you complain about school lab computers being remotely accessed by the system administrator? They don't bother you, as long as you follow the rules. Same goes with all higher powers. Do you complain to a cop because he gives you a speeding ticket?

So, that makes me wonder about you, UF. You just admitted you were working with ThaSpaz and Orbitz to crash servers. Something like that makes your reputation very low (IMO, the same level as them)

So, if you do set up a list server, would we use it? I would be more afraid of you abusing power than I would be with Nimrod or Monolith. I think you would allow crashing and cheating. We are here for GAMES, not having our fun ruined by some crasher.

I just don't think that the list servers should be run in the UK. They should be run in the Netherlands, where there are a lot more people.

Not exactly.

No.

I only set up the bouncer to let them on. Other than that, not really.

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find you get what you need.

What is that supposed to mean? You're disproving your own point.

You can't always get what you want...
YOU can't rid of Nimrod or set up your own list server.

...but if you try sometimes, you might find you get what you need.
But YOU did try. And if you were observant enough, you got what you need. We have list server network run by people who are capable enough to run it, and while it's not perfect, nothing is. That's all you need.

I was wondering whether I could run an Australian listserver as Battle Server sometimes comes up on JazzTool as Distance: Too far.

Are you prepared for huge electrical bills from leaving your computer on 24/7/365?

Why? All the listserver really does is give people the IP of the game they are joining. And the Netherlands and UK are fairly close. And I don't think having more people near the listserver will make it work better.

It's not that much, really.

Well, that renders UF's post useless.
Also if there were any New Zealand players they would benefit as well since it'd be in the Southern part of Aussie.

I know that. But consider the fact that the people who play JJ2 are mostly from the Netherlands, and that a Dutch list server would be relatively fast to access for the Dutch population.