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JDC 21 and beyond

It's winter, and understandably, others and I have been hearing questions about a next JDC season again. Last season we've heard several words there and there that "JDC is not fun", and every season there's the problem of players heavily losing interest towards the season's end. I believe these ideas can help JDC a lot!

There's a number of ways in which JDC could be made more fresh. The first that comes to mind would be a new scoring system. We've actually had an idea for a new system by Gry and EvilMike since 2007, and I think it would be an improvement. I'm not going to quote the entire thread here (unless you lot want me to!), but in a nutshell, it's a simpler and subjectively more fair system than the current one we have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilMike

This system rewards activity a lot. All duels are worth "raw points", much like in the early jdc. But on the other hand, the amount of points very much depends on skill. While this will probably encourage some people do duel obsessively for maximum points, we must remember that every system we've used has some flaws in it, and there are always ways to try to curb such problems. The key is really to make a fun system that encourages people to be active - jdc is not a "serious" tournament like some others are, and can afford to have a system that rewards more than just raw skill.

Another idea worth considering, and one we'll probably be doing nonetheless, is bringing back JDCE. In case you don't remember, JDCE was essentially a traditional duel tournament that ran alongside JDC 7. (more information here) Even though JDCE eventually failed, I think it's fair to say JJ2 has changed since then, and trying it again would be worth it. Ragnarok tells me he's up for doing this next season.

I think JDCE and the new system would have some good synergy, too, and that change would be beneficial. Of course, implementing those changes would take some time, which would possibly mean no JDC this winter. While it would be reasonably easy and quick to set up another season, I don't really want to repeat everything once again, while there's an alternative.

If you have any questions or ideas, do post them!

Yes on both ideas! But can they be implemented now, then?

Or perhaps who would be up to implement them? That was usually the problem :(. We got quite a few programmers out there now who might be willing to help so I doubt it is less of a problem than it used to be. I'm all up for a new system and JDCE being brought back.

Some things to consider for JDCE though.. Duel tournaments tend to take months cause players simply don't duel when they're supposed to. They keep rescheduling their matches resulting in something like this: http://jazzjackrabbit.net/index.php?...=1&op=toernooi

One half went on relatively quickly, while the other half drags on and on and on.. That's just the winners bracket, the losers bracket is even worse. Keeping players motivated is usually a problem in every tournament.

It'd be single elimination, a duel per round.

That's not asking much =)

Edit: Though I'd do a little market research first!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grytolle (Post 473411)

Yes on both ideas! But can they be implemented now, then?

JDCE: I don't know if any site changes are necessary for this. Remember that blur managed to run Tournament Tuesday (and later WT) using only news posts and extra .htm files. Rag could probably do something similar.

Scoring system: I have no idea about this. I suppose Bobby isn't likely to code it, and if anybody else were to, I think a total JDC recode may as well be in order. This would also allow JDCE to be ran smoothly alongside JDC. We probably need to discuss the ground ideas more before looking for volunteers (though there are several capable people in my mind).

I hope I'm not offending anyone by posting here - I don't technically have anything to do with JDC, but I've worked with the code on a few occasions, and depending on what needs to be done I could perhaps help out (blur would be the obvious one to do it I guess but I don't know how involved he is nowadays)

Anyway, let me know if I can help, at least for the small things I think I could be of use.

Considering that most of the code will be reusable (saving match results etc) and that if i recall correctly EM laid out our idea in formulas, a recoding of the score calculation shouldn't be a huge project. Maybe you can take a look at the source code and give us an estimate of how much work it is, stijn? That would probably be useful when searching for a volunteer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stijn (Post 473415)

I hope I'm not offending anyone by posting here

Not at all! Also, seconding what Gry said.

Seems fine, I suppose not many players would mind a duel once per round. And then again if they don't just give them a forfeit loss immediately. Works best with such tournaments :).

Exactly! ;) It's JDC I'm allowed to be mean!

Hmm... Both of these ideas sound great. I agree with both, although I haven't actually taken part in a JDC before... Oh well. Oh, and does anyone know where the current List Servers are Hosted? And how to connect to them? I tried the List Server Patch on Haze's Hideout, but that didn't work. Anyone got any ideas?

Back on topic, will I have to re-sign up to JDC when this Redesign happens?

I can also do some coding for JDC if you want me to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stijn (Post 473415)

The system being talked about is basically a total overhaul of the way scoring works. Probably not necessary to completely rewrite JDC but still a good chunk of it. Luckily, the design part was basically finished, so it's just a matter of implementation. It's described here, with all the necessary formulas to start with (can be tweaked later): http://www.jazz2online.com/jcf/showthread.php?t=16741

That's a private forum, so if anyone without access wants to read the details just ask and I will repost all the relevant stuff.

Note that I'm posting here out of interest in a new system, not as a jdc admin.... (I'm mostly-retired from jdc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grytolle (Post 473416)

Each JDC season has its own folder with script files (/jdc1/ til /jdc20/ and the current or latest season in /jdc/). Each season also has its own set of database tables in which it stores duels etc

Regarding the scoring formula, several paramters are saved in the database for each season:

Points per duel
Opponent factor
Roast/fall factor
Confidence
Win factor
Quality exponent

So changing these is a matter of updating a value in the database. Then for actually calculating the score for each duel, a player's quality, etc, there's a bunch of functions that rely on a bunch of other functions that rely on another set of functions (there might be more levels of dependency, not sure). Anyway, it's not the most comprehensive setup, but most functions for actually calculating things seem to be in one file - jdcscoring.php. These functions are fairly complex since a lot of data needs to be recalculated or checked whenever a duel is submitted so among other things it creates a few temporary SQL tables during calulcation.

All in all it looks to me like it's going to be fairly difficult to change a part of the system - as said, a lot of things depend on other parts of the system to function so changing parts might be more work than rewriting the whole thing. This obviously depends on what kind of change you specifically want to make. As said a lot of the actual calculations are in one file, so it could also very well be that all you need to do is make a few tweaks in there.

However, the code is kind of messy - sorry, Bob - and I think it would be fairly confusing to someone who isn't very familiar with it (I've only worked on fairly specific parts, so I too have trouble finding out what part of the code does what), so having someone go over it and move things around might be more trouble than it's worth. I think that, especially if you intend to make the scoring simpler and change some other things too, a rewrite would be a worthwhile project, though obviously it would still take a fair amount of time. I think this kind of project would greatly benefit from an object oriented type of code framework, and JDC was probably written back when PHP didn't actually support objects. The best would probably be to have someone who knows his PHP and JDC info well to go over the scoring functions and determine whether changing the current system would be possible, once you've finalized the new scoring system.

JDCE is in a completely separate codebase (though it borrows a lot of things from JDC, the files and database are separate) and getting it running would probably be less of a problem as you apparently don't intend on changing much about that.

If you manage to convince Bob to help though, he'd probably have no problem changing things around, the code probably makes a lot of sense to someone who is deeply familiar with it ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilMike (Post 473422)

That's a private forum, so if anyone without access wants to read the details just ask and I will repost all the relevant stuff.

Perhaps it could be moved into this forum instead? Suppose there's not much harm in that.

I cannot make any coding for JCS afaIk and I guess that the scoring system is and will be good. Anyway, what are the alteratiOns being considered? A single-elimination tournament alongside The season sounds good with one match-up per round. I suggest that if players want to particiPâté, it may be successful and if so, try it another time! Because it could be more efficient once it's been done before, and after enough tournaments, scheduling should get easier. Also, what does confidence mean in regards to points for dueling?

Going to quote the stuff about scoring changes here. This is from 2007!

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilMike (Post 403133)

Grytolle and I have done a lot of thinking on this subject, mostly for fun, but the ideas were good enough that I wrote them down. Since there was talk in the other thread, I figured I would post this. I still don't know if implementing a totally new system for the summer season would be a good idea, but on the other hand I'm not the one doing the coding.

This is only the first part of the details on the system. I consider the following to be the "core" of the system. I also wrote a lot of other stuff down, but it's more in the area of speculation... ideas that expand on the ones described here, but not essential to it (and are more contentious). I'll post them later, but for now I want the discussion to focus on the main ideas.

Two main principles guided our thinking when coming up with this system. The first, is that things should be kept fairly simple, or at least simpler than the current jdc scoring. The second principle is that players shouldn't lose points.

This system rewards activity a lot. All duels are worth "raw points", much like in the early jdc. But on the other hand, the amount of points very much depends on skill. While this will probably encourage some people do duel obsessively for maximum points, we must remember that every system we've used has some flaws in it, and there are always ways to try to curb such problems. The key is really to make a fun system that encourages people to be active - jdc is not a "serious" tournament like some others are, and can afford to have a system that rewards more than just raw skill.

But anyway, here is the main part of the .txt I wrote up.

BASIC SYSTEM

This is based off of JDC, so it uses many of the same principles. Competitors
arrange their own duels and everything is automated. The difference is this
system will go back to a sort of "points per duel" based formula like early JDC,
but with much more complexity and overall "fairness". Rounds would be
eliminated, and the tournament could potentially last much longer, possibly
indefinitely. Events would be scored as they are today, but duels and 2vs2s
would be different. Also, overall scores would be MUCH higher, so events would
obviously need to be worth more as well.

DUEL FORMULA

The formula for determining how many points a duel is worth is as follows. Note
that the numbers here will be adjustable.

Code:

duelPoints = 50 * (roastFall) * (qualityFactor) * (2 [if the duel is a win]) + 1

In other words, a 10-0 duel (in other words roastFall = 1.00) against an
opponent with perfect quality (1.00) would be worth 101 points directly to your
score. Losing a duel is worth significantly fewer points, with the absolute
highest amount possible using this formula being about 25 points, and the lowest
being of course 1 point.

Example 1: a 10-4 duel (roastFall = 0.71) versus an opponent with a
qualityFactor of 0.40 will be worth 50 * 0.71 * 0.40 * 2 + 1 = 29.40 points.

Example 2: a 5-10 duel (roastFall = 0.33) versus an opponent with a
qualityFactor of 0.80 will be worth 50 * 0.33 * 0.80 + 1 = 14.20 points.

QUALITY FACTOR

The "quality factor" is a new concept, which basically replaces the old opponent
quality and serves the same function. It too, is based off of win:loss, however
there is more to it than that. One possible method of doing it is below.

Code:

qualityFactor = ((opponent's win:loss overall) + (opponent's win:loss against you)) / 2

To put it simply, qualityFactor is an average of two values: the opponent's
win:loss record AGAINST YOU, and the opponent's OVERALL win:loss record. For
example, if your opponent's win:loss is 10:5 (0.66), and your opponent's record
against you specifically is 1:0 (1.00), then qualityFactor will equal 0.83.

The problem with this system is that it would be inaccurate and ineffective if
the database only had a few duels in the system to use as a basis for the
formula. Therefore, if you duel an opponent with fewer than six duels in the
database, the following alternative formula will be used for qualityFactor.

Code:

qualityFactor = 0.5

Finally, if a user DOES have enough duels in the database, but you have never
dueled them personally, the following formula will be used.

Code:

qualityFactor = opponent's win:loss overall

With this system you'll always get points for each duel. But dueling good
players will get you many more points than dueling bad players. Also, if you
duel someone many times and win each game, that player will be worth
significantly fewer points to you, due to qualityFactor being the average of
both that player's win:loss, AND their record against you.

Note that because of how qualityFactor works, the qualityFactor of a specific
user will be different depending on which user is viewing it. And likewise, it
would be impossible for you to view your own qualityFactor, since it is
impossible to duel yourself!

For 2vs2 games, the system would calculate the qualityFactor in a more complex
way.

Code:

qualityFactor = ((opponent 1 qualityFactor) + (opponent 2 qualityFactor) + (1 - (your teammate's win:loss)))/3

To put it simply, the system basically takes the average qualityFactor of the
members of the enemy team, and also counts the win:loss of your teammate
subtracted from 1. This means that qualityFactor for the 2vs2 game is dependant
on both how good the enemy players are, and how good your teammate is. If you
are playing against a pair of really good players, and your teammate sucks,
qualityFactor will be quite high.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilMike (Post 403254)

I think I'll post a few more examples just to make things extra clear.

EXAMPLE 1

Mike's win:loss record overall is 5:2, or 0.71.

Bob's win:loss record overall is 3:7, or 0.3. (BECAUSE BOB SUCKS)

Mike duels bob. The final score is 10-2, which calculates to 0.83 for mike, and 0.17 for bob.

This is their first duel, so their win:loss record against EACH OTHER is 0:0. Because of that, we are using this formula to determine qualityFactor:

Code:

qualityFactor = opponent's win:loss overall

And of course, here is the formula for calculating the duel:

Code:

duelPoints = 50 * (roastFall) * (qualityFactor) * (2 [if the duel is a win]) + 1

For mike, this will result in the following:

Code:

duelPoints = 50 * 0.83 * 0.3 * 2 + 1 = 25.9 points

For bob, this will result in the following:

Code:

duelPoints = 50 * 0.17 * 0.71 + 1 = 7 points

EXAMPLE 2

Mike and bob decide to have a rematch. Carrying over from the last match:

Mike's win:loss record overall is 6:2, or 0.75.

Bob's win:loss record overall is 3:8, or 0.27.

Mike and bob's win:loss record against EACH OTHER is 1:0, which calculates to 1 for mike and 0 for bob.

The final score is again 10-2, which calculates to 0.83 for mike, and 0.17 for bob.

Because they now have at least 1 duel against between the two of them, we will now use this formula to determine qualityFactor:

Code:

qualityFactor = ((opponent's win:loss overall) + (opponent's win:loss against you)) / 2

Bob's qualityFactor (as seen by Mike):

Code:

qualityFactor = (0.27 + 0) / 2 = 0.135

Mike's qualityFactor (as seen by Bob)

Code:

qualityFactor = (0.75 + 1) / 2 = 0.875

Now to calculate the final score of the duel.

Mike's score:

Code:

duelPoints = 50 * 0.83 * 0.135 * 2 + 1 = 12.2 points

Bob's score:

Code:

duelPoints = 50 * 0.17 * 0.875 + 1 = 8.4 points

Mike still gets more points, since he did win. But he gets significantly fewer in this duel, as a result of the qualityFactor being affected by the example 1 duel. Bob gets a few more points this time for the same reason, although he still doesn't get very many because he got is ass kicked.

There was some other stuff but it's more technical and I cant quote it easily because the jcf doesn't really make nested quoting easy.

Still, this sounds like a far more fair system and punishes players for dueling the same player 20x. 2v2s with quality sounds a lot better too. :)

Here's another gem from that thread:

BASIC SYSTEM - is good. I would not change anything there.

DUEL FORMULA - I would like to edit it a bit. I wonder, why would you get a point if you lose a duel? A "+1" on the end is useless. Maybe you want to satisfy players to keep playing by regarding them with that point, but, for me, it's useless. Why? Well, because you can't lose points. In the worst case you can not receive any points (means that you'll stay on the same amount of points like you had before that duel). Just remove +1 and everything will be good there.

QUALITY FACTOR for duels - I just think that roast:fall matters much more than win:lose.

Code:

qualityFactor = ((opponent's win:loss overall) + (opponent's Roast:Fall against you)) / 2

QUALITY FACTOR for 2v2s - Excellent idea. This is exactly what I was thinking of, but couldn't make any formula.

QUESTION: qualityFactor isn't the same for duels and 2v2s? It would be good if they're different, because some players aren't as good in duels as they're in team games or vice versa.

It is very hard to reclaim your position in the top 3 if you are away even for one week. Should this be fixed?

Sounds like you're talking about the old system, Jake

Indeed, and there doesn't seem to be any fixes yet. Thought that I should mention it.
Also:

Quote:

This system rewards activity a lot

Hey everyone, it's getting closer and closer to that time, where summer is here and we're all free to get down to some good old fashioned duelling (and events). So upon minor discussion, JDC 21 is planned to start again in July, or around the last week of June, or so.

So what will be different this season? Well, we wanted to make a new scoring system as you could tell, but as far as I can confirm, that won't happen till JDC 22. However, to spice things up a little, I have opted to run JDCE alongside JDC again, so what is JDCE? JDCE is going to be a single-elimination knock-out tournament that runs alongside JDC, whereby players will have to face one opponent per round in probably pre-determined maps. However, I haven't decided if I want this to be a 1v1 or a 2v2 tournament yet, so I open this section to you; tell me what you would like to see in JDCE?

JDCE will also be worth a set amount of points, which will be distributed according to the position you appear in the knock-out table. This isn't all completely figured out yet, so more details later to follow.

What else, well, Whantil causes 3hks >: [. See you in a month!

CeeJays seal of approval.

1v1 JDCE!

Hello, because i cant post i will reply here searching for help :/ ...
Im very old nostalgic JJ2 player...
2 years ago i found this site but i was just looking, now i want to play online with y guys.... So can u give me links to download game with mp mod :D...

Use Google, just adding the word 'Digiex' should put you in the right track.
Spambot much?

It's no longer July. What are the plans at this point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CelL (Post 475961)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooba (Post 475925)

Happening as soon as Bob responds to my mail...

Ah, so you mean "never".

Depending on what exactly needs to be done, maybe I could help. I don't know whether Bob would mind though.

It's about setting up the new season on the website and archiving the old one. No one really knows how, and when last asked about it Bob strongly discouraged anyone else from trying.

Would be nice if you did take a look, though.

No clue based on a quick look. Maybe I could just copy the site and reset the database or something, but the question is what does jdc proof , not who is the best player , no jdc proofs who is the smartest

As long as jdc keeps (or makes!) people engaged, it can proof pudding for all I care.

Jazz Duelist Challenge

JDC 22 will begin on June 1st.

More announcements to come within the next week, but expect more cool stuff and more JDCE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooba (Post 478911)

JDC 22 will begin on June 1st.

More announcements to come within the next week, but expect more cool stuff and more JDCE.

Nice. I will have plenty of time to play in June. Lotsa free days!

And it looks like Stijn's JDC site recode is making quite some progress! :cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slaz (Post 478913)

Nice. I will have plenty of time to play in June. Lotsa free days!

And it looks like Stijn's JDC site recode is making quite some progress! :cool:

Well, I haven't really had time/motivation to work on it for the past few weeks. But it will be finished... someday... probably...

Anyone reading this, do feel free to take me making it open source as an invitation to help coding ;)

Maybe if I stop being lazy, this'll give me a chance to make a banner for JDC. I barely have any knowledge on fancy effects though, so I'll leave that to someone else.

Just a reminder that the new season starts in 3 days and there's no logo yet.

[img]http://www11.speedyshare.com/J89tC/download/dzez.png[/img]