Dec 18, 2022, 04:32 PM | |
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Here are four (formerly nine) particular places where I think the ways rabbits move around in JJ2 could be better. In this build, they are only available in local games. You cannot join multiplayer servers and use these physics changes to your (dis)advantage compared to people who are not running this experimental build. Part of giving feedback on these changes is saying under what circumstances you think they should or should not be available, which can include "always" and "never" at the extremes. You can give one answer for some and a different answer for others. You can also report that the changes aren't working as intended and have introduced other bugs to the game. Unless stated otherwise, none of these changes will be available in speedrun mode. In an arbitrary order:
Last edited by Violet CLM; Aug 20, 2023 at 08:54 AM. |
Dec 19, 2022, 12:19 PM | |
The sticking to slopes fix is buggy with speed destruct scenery, increasing the speed you can plummet downwards in survivor28.
I ardently support all of these changes except 1 (faster poles), which I dislike, and 4 (sticking to slopes) which I skeptically support. So my answer is "never" for 1 and "always" for the rest. Details: 1 (faster poles). This is the only change here that I just don't like. Levels with poles - the levels good enough to actually get played, anyway - usually use them because you stick to them for a second, or are at least designed with the delay in mind. The original delay also feels more appropriate for the animation and sound in my opinion. Furthermore, any level designer or server admin who does want faster poles can already get them with a few lines of Angelscript, no? 2 (one way sidekick). Yay bug fixed. I can't think of any level that relies on the current behavior, or any other downside. 3 (running up slopes against walls). Yay bug fixed. While the current behavior could be useful in levels with bouncer or electroblaster ammo, it's not really interesting, and I don't think any level uses it intentionally. If you want to be really paranoid about it, one alternative would be to keep the player getting stuck in the running position, but make jumping work. It wouldn't make much physics sense anymore, but would avoid breaking any obscure level that does rely on this behavior. 4 (sticking to slopes). I support fixing this bug, but there are also strong cases against it. It feels weird to have this bug gone as a long-time player, and in this construction of tiles, crossing the gap is easier with the glitch around. One can also imagine sucker tube/pole/spring constructions that are broken by this fix, but I doubt any such system is used in a competition-relevant level. 5 and 8 (double jump/copter ears fix). In contrast to sticking to slopes, I got used to this change immediately, despite 24 years of vanilla Spaz double jump muscle memory. It's just so obviously the natural way for these things to work, and while we may all be used to working with the current behavior, it's an awful learning curve for new players. Yeah, it makes Spaz slightly stronger, but we adopted fireball, seeker bug fixes, other things that change multiplayer balance, it's fine. Can always give some other advantage to Jazz and Lori if needed. and I've definitely seen a hundred of us 10+ year players complain that the game "ate my double jump" in Survivor so let's not act too high and mighty 6 (buttstomp bounce fix). Yay bug fixed, nothing to complain about here. I was sure the fix would break survivor28 but I tested it and it didn't! 9 (easier special moves). Fantastic change, improves flow when playing as Jazz and it's a nice increase to the viability of special moves in multiplayer. |
Dec 19, 2022, 04:16 PM | |
I think the faster poles should be a toggle, as I also think certain levels had that delay in mind (specifically I thought of enemies that follow you like bugs and float lizards and how they might be affected).
As for the double jump, I was certain muscle memory would screw me only to be pleasantly surprised when there was no adjustment period at all - I got the hang of it immediately. Don't really have opinions on the rest. |
Dec 20, 2022, 10:43 AM | ||||||
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Everything else looks good aside from the issues already raised.
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Jan 1, 2023, 07:08 AM | |
I think 1 is too extreme of a change, though the spin time can probably be decreased by a smaller amount. I like the other changes mostly, though I've only tested them in Single Player (since that's what I mostly play). The 'running down slopes' change feels a bit weird and I'm not entirely sure I like it but in levels with big slopes that clearly were intended to be run down (looking at you, Easter) this does clearly improve things.
However, given the earlier response to a vaguely similar request I wonder whether these changes would not be better implemented as a mutator, assuming we can at some point load mutators in single player easily too? I think the position articulated in that thread ("JJ2+ will not itself rebalance character abilities") is a healthy one and some of the changes here do seem to go in another direction. tl;dr 1 - Tone it down, then probably OK 2, 3 - OK 4 - Probably OK, though like minmay I have some lingering doubts 5, 6, 8, 9 - OK for the part of the game I play, but I think these may be too controversial to change across the board 7 - I don't 100% understand this one but it seems fine? |
Jan 1, 2023, 09:47 AM | |||
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Jan 3, 2023, 01:54 PM | |
This is my feedback based on a Turbo playthrough from Dungeon Dilemma to Bad Pitt using Spaz. My thoughts are purely about the Single Player experience.
1. Bad change, or at least it's way too fast. Gives you very little time to think your next move. Also, some SP levels would have to suffer from this (such as Blacky's "A Nightmare Before Christmas" with its poles segment). 2. Sure, it's a bug fix. 3. Also good. A bit unrelated but this would be nice for the Queen boss as well, as to not build momentum while running into her. 4. Very happy with this change, I can't think of any levels that could be negatively affected by this. It makes playing TSF less frustrating. 5. I haven't noticed it. No idea. 6. Fine change, one less bug out there. 7. Not noticeable so I suppose it's ok? 8. I really like this change, it feels a little weird at first but it's pleasant once you get used to it. It would be even better if this was a toggleable feature though. 9. I'm not a fan of this change, I sometimes found myself performing special attacks when I wasn't intending to.
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Jan 5, 2023, 02:13 PM | ||
I like 1, but then again I always despised poles so breezing through them is fun to me. I can't be the only one who never liked poles, right?
5 feels fantastic.
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Jan 6, 2023, 12:44 PM | |
My take on poles is there are surely some levels that effectively use them as traps, but that doesn't feel fun and it's certainly not their intended function in the game. They're supposed to be things you use to gain speed! It sucks to see a pole and think "oh, I want to avoid that."
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Jan 8, 2023, 08:03 AM | |
That's not your call to change that though...
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Jan 8, 2023, 08:39 AM | |
No, and that's why this is a public thread, to see what people think.
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Feb 28, 2023, 04:10 PM | |
Update: #1 (poles) has been rejected as a universal change and is now available in 5.11 as an event parameter instead. #2 (one way slopes) and #7 (vines and h-springs) have been implemented in 5.11. All others remain up for discussion.
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Mar 3, 2023, 11:37 AM | |
I've updated the build to be based on 5.11 now, just for convenience.
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Apr 26, 2023, 02:43 PM | |
Initially I was against changing the core physics of our beloved rabbit game, but I changed my mind. I hope all of this gets implemented!
If you really think about it these changes are for the better and the old mechanics aren't used for anything remarkable, they are annoying all the time.
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May 8, 2023, 04:05 PM | |
The consensus with #4 (sticking to downhill slopes) seems to be that it usually feels good but it's possible there are a handful of levels (although I don't think anyone has identified any?) where it would go poorly. What about a jjPlayersStickToSlopes property, set to true at the start of every level, which that handful of levels could be edited to set to false? Similar to how This Level is Untitled has a script now to make it use vanilla-like copter code?
(assuming the Speed Destruct Scenery interaction gets fixed, of course.) |
May 16, 2023, 10:15 AM | ||
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Jun 25, 2024, 07:56 AM | |
Finally got around to do some more testing:
1. Great 2. Great 3. Great 4. Good on paper, but still breaks some sucker tubes in levels without a floor. Last time I checked Nature's plot of land by Ragnarok, and the exit sucker tube throws you into a floor below. Hopefully fixed in 5.13. 5.Great 6. Great 7. I can't find notes on what 7 used to be, but I guess it's fine. 8. Great change, although in one use case i would like it to be a bit less generous. When running off a platform and edging a jump, it's bad when you miss the jump, but then also immediatly waste your doublejump because you missed it. It feels like a double punishment for trying and missing the jump from an edge and can seriously mess up your trajectory. I think if you run of an edge, there must be like 1 or 2 frames where pressing jump does nothing. Same issue goes for immediatly using copter ears off a ledge instead of jumping. 9. This felt bad and strays too far from game physics. Gives too much unnecessary powe to special moves. Also allows spaz to chain sidekicks within 0 frames. Trying to wallclimb with /quirks on makes you unintentionally special move. Jumping just high enough to buttstomp on a platform makes you uninentionally special move. Jumping needs to take priority a few frames when sliding or landing. I'm in favour of not introducing this at all, not even as a toggle, for jj2 consistency in behavior.
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Jun 25, 2024, 08:28 AM | ||
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Jul 21, 2024, 05:09 AM | ||
Hello. I have given the new build a go.
It is my opinion that #5 and #8 (double jump fixes) are insanely good. I only tested on single player but I don't think it gives any edge on competitive play, top players already live and breathe the old behaviour anyway. For me this has always been the most painful part of JJ2. I think that it would be amazing to publish these two (especially #8) in in a normal release. It will make singleplayer and multiplayer games more enjoyable for everyone. #6 (buttstomp fix) feels good, doesn't break anything. I think it should be implemented. #9 (easier special move) is very nice for Jazz, makes him feel more lively and closer to Spaz.
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