Hello users of J2O...

Well, I changed the topic...

I wanna talk with you about ideas...

When great ideas coming in your head - it's just amazing...but when you trying make these ideas real in music, in JCS or in tileset...result: Poor s**t...

How to do a great project, which will kick a** and will beat high ratings or even...will be FEATURED?

How to do it without loss?

I asked admins to rename this topic...but they're just ignoring me...I better make new topic...

Well, to answer your question, there aren't really any shortcuts to it. Just spend a lot of time on each submission of yours. Atleast one week for a duel-sized MP level, one month for a big MP or a single SP level or half a year for a SP pack. Also, use correct punctuation, it's rather annoying to read ... after everything you say

Originally Posted by Jake

Well, to answer your question, there aren't really any shortcuts to it. Just spend a lot of time on each submission of yours. Atleast one week for a duel-sized MP level, one month for a big MP or a single SP level or half a year for a SP pack. Also, use correct punctuation, it's rather annoying to read ... after everything you say

I disagree, Maps don't take time to make, but skill. I suggest you learn the important hotkeys in JCS so you can work fast, the faster you can work the less annoyed you are for adding new stuff and the efforts for that.

Well, I actually kinda have a working way for SP level-making:

1. Make your level.
2. Play your level.
3. Play some good levels (usually devres or UD in my case).
4. Play your level.
5. Rate your level from 1 to 5 (only integers, so possible ratings are: 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5).
..a) if rated 1 - delete the level, repeat actions from point 1
..b) if rated 2 - delete the level, repeat actions from point 1
..c) if rated 3 - delete the level, repeat actions from point 1 (I was trying to save those few times when I saw ways to improve them, but it doesn't work)
..d) if rated 4:
....- if you can see room for improval, improve it and repeat actions from point 2
....- if you can't, delete the level, repeat actions from point 1
..e) if rated 5 - keep it, go to point 6
6. Now you have a level. Only 29 more and you're done with your episode, hooray!

Well, at least it looks like that in my case. Results in a lot of deleted levels, yeah. Sometimes it takes time and some online tests (for critics ofc, not for actual testing) to understand it's below 5. For me it's going to take much more than half a year as Jake suggests, because atm I don't have even a single level for my episode.

If you want to make a good level the first step you need to take should always be to master the technical knowledge of the program youre using. Someone above me mentioned hotkeys and I would definately reccomend using them since they save a lot of time and boring work. Experiment with the program, build a few lvls and compare them, and learn from your mistakes. When you feel comfortable using the level editor and its features, you got the technical side down.

Next, try playing some high quality levels other people made. Read some reviews, and analyze what makes those levels good and why people like them. Try to follow some of the trends until you feel comfortable with your own style. Get input on your levels from other people and listen to what they say.

Finally, the most important (to me) part is inspiration. When I find inspiration, I let my work flow through me and try to feel what i make. If I don't make a connection with my work, I scrap it and start over because it will come out bland and uninspired. After you learn the technical skills, this part can be a lot of fun cause there's so many ways you can bring your ideas to life. BUT, like I said earlier, its really hard to do this until you have mastered the technical skills which is what it looks like youre having trouble with.

I had to rush this post, but I tried to offer my best advice to you so maybe one day you'll learn how to make a level that gets featured on the front page. Good luck :)

Jake, my level which is designed for at least 8 players(or more) was made in two weeks so i must disagree. A really good sp pack requires a lot of time, more than half a year(I just know that, maybe im too lazy for making a sp level pack, but one level took me about 3 or 4 months and its still unfinished[but its size is about 400x200 so it can be explained easily, but still, Im too lazy, or maybe I just get bored of that]).

I agree with SE, not with deleting levels but with the idea to not include crappy level into sp level pack. Or to include it to show how crappy it is. But in my opinion if your level deserves a 4 rating it can be included into the whole pack. You wont get 10 rating anyway.

To answer the question, how to create an epic level? I don't know, I just like doing levels. I am mostly making levels without any plan, but with inspiration. Then it works perfectly. If you try to force yourself on creating a level then it can end badly. Try to see a levels rated between 8 and 10, and see for what people liked them. Maybe not for an ideas, but for nice, simple layout, eyecandy. I mostly like to do eyecandy. Also, try to make events like float ups visibile(I dont like when I cant even see a simple up arrow or a fan below me which can tell me that when I will step over it it will float me up. That's why I prefer to use springs). The same about belts, but for belts there should be a special animations.

At first you should make a simple duel levels. If it gets good rating maybe try something else(map for a different game mode), or just create a bigger map. If it feels crappy ask someone, maybe he/she will like the crappines of it. And that's all.

For making SP pack for need - More free time... like a full free week, but much more... Just sit on chair and work with JCS...test...work...test...fix...test...again test...betatest with friends... (i think so, with same temps i can complete SP pack for 2-5 months)

I found some useful future maps from a lot of scratches made by me (in 2009-2010).

"Pirates. Ahoy!" new CTF map creating from scratch "Cave Ritual" and DarkSonic said "...the EC looks pretty decent so far" and I think I'm on right track...
I think I can use some scratches for awesome levels...

Well, I haven't problems with eyecandy... I have other problems...

1.I have not much time to check out internet...
2.I don't know no one who can help me with betatesting SP/CTF/Battle and etc.

Well, anyway thank you for tips, I'll try to use in future...

Fro 1) just you can help on yourself, make your work in packs(I mean get somehow free time, or just wait for some)... And abouth 30 mins,(wich probably you have..) is to read a few reviews and understand them.
2) Make a topic in JCS: "need betatesters" or something like this, and probably you will find one or more.

I think read reviews is not important... I'm learning on my own bads/bugs/errors...
Also sometimes when I'm so bored, I'm playing high-rated levels like "Devres" and "Another Dimension"...

And I think to make SP pack need lesser time than half of year... (I lost only 4-6 months in making fan-mission for game Thief 2 The Metal Age...and this mission got pretty high ratings from fan-players...)

I lost very much time in Ever Story I, but made a big bag with bull***t...
I think problem is not amount of time...There's just need to know JJ2 gameplay, high-rated fan-levels, and create new levels under "Just Do It!"

Also I think main point is: Inspire... When I'm inspired, I can loss less time and make good project (as i'm doing with new ctf lvl)

Well, And I think featured will come to me, if I'll just relax, sit down, and just launch JCS... Every new level will become much better than past... (sorry for crappy english, i hope you understood my point)

deleted

Originally Posted by Crazy Rabbit

I think read reviews is not important...

Ahaha.

What?

No.

Rule #1: Learn fancy JCS tricks with your own tileset such as palette edits that are such that your lives, health, score, and ammo do not show up.
Rule #2: Use lots of text. They will be so distracted with reading they will not notice your level is so bad.
Rule #3: Eyecandy to the max. Cover up everything! Make sure they can't see a damn thing, but they'll go "Oooooh..." and again forget your level is so bad.

Follow these rules, young Padawan, and you shall have yourself a decent level.

I don't actually think these rules are good. Don't follow them please.

Originally Posted by cooba

Ahaha.

What?

No.

Yes yes, you understood me very well...I think so...

I don't waste time to read reviews

Okay, let's see... It's mean before creating mega lvl (or mega project) I must read 10 helpful reviews? Or just play high-rated levels and reject cons and pros to not allow same bads in levelmaking?

I think second way is more correctly...

For example: today I played some Anniversary Bash CTF levels, and understood some tactical positions...like capturing flag, getting away, or just defend position...and...etc...

Originally Posted by Crazy Rabbit

Yes yes, you understood me very well...I think so...

I don't waste time to read reviews

Okay, let's see... It's mean before creating mega lvl (or mega project) I must read 10 helpful reviews? Or just play high-rated levels and reject cons and pros to not allow same bads in levelmaking?

I think second way is more correctly...

For example: today I played some Anniversary Bash CTF levels, and understood some tactical positions...like capturing flag, getting away, or just defend position...and...etc...

You are correct, that you can learn most through experience, but that doesn't mean reviews aren't helpful too. Some reviews are short and pointless, but a long, well thought out review can be incredibly useful. It will give you a good look into the mind and opinions of the people playing your levels. (Or even other levels. You could check out the reviews of popular levels other people have made) You can get a good feel for what people think of the balance, power-up placement, etc. I think to truly understand gameplay theory, you're going to have to figure out what other people like and dislike. Because in the end, most of the people who you want to play your level are not you. And a level you created with balance and gimmicks that you really like could be something that other people just don't find fun.

Originally Posted by Troglobite

You are correct, that you can learn most through experience, but that doesn't mean reviews aren't helpful too. Some reviews are short and pointless, but a long, well thought out review can be incredibly useful. It will give you a good look into the mind and opinions of the people playing your levels. (Or even other levels. You could check out the reviews of popular levels other people have made) You can get a good feel for what people think of the balance, power-up placement, etc. I think to truly understand gameplay theory, you're going to have to figure out what other people like and dislike. Because in the end, most of the people who you want to play your level are not you. And a level you created with balance and gimmicks that you really like could be something that other people just don't find fun.

Well, we shall see xd

Found good way to learn how to be good JCSer...

Make conversions of various good-rated levels...Change tilesets, fix wrong tiles and etc...just converse it into other tileset... Step by Step...

One my friend learned how to draw manga from redrawing some pages...It's got much time but he learned something...no...not something...too much of it...

I'm gonna do same thing with JCS...

What do you think?

I think that'd be going about it the wrong way, really. Making a tileset conversion doesn't teach you how to draw tilesets, for example. The only real way to get good at making levels or tilesets is to practice. Sure, you can read tutorials, but it all boils down to having done something so many times that you know exactly the way it should be done. It might not sound the most efficient way, but practice makes perfect.

Nah, looks like you did not understand my position ...

This is not wrong...I think so...

Because remaking of lvl it's way to understand gameplay, ammo placement, etc...
And it's practice!

I don't think I know a single level maker which would like you to take their level, change its tileset, fix and upload as yours. I believe you can't learn anything by such practice. Also most of the levels would lose a lot of tricks, flow and eyecandy because of that, due to specific mask and tiles of each tileset. Example? Diagonal pipes in semi, like the ones below the carrot. Good luck finding a tileset which would keep carrot tricks as they are.

Originally Posted by Obi1mcd

I think that'd be going about it the wrong way, really. Making a tileset conversion doesn't teach you how to draw tilesets, for example.

Not as you phrased it, but I think the point still stands. No, there's not too much drawing involved in the production of (most) conversions, certainly not when compared to original tilesets. However, it happens not infrequently that you do have to make some edits of individual tiles, which will in part familiarize you with (emulating) a drawing style potentially rather more complicated than your own. More importantly, though, making a tileset conversion has the potential of familiarizing you with the process of tileset creation abstracted away from the actual drawing, and so things like tile arrangement, masking, which event tiles to include, what users will find helpful in a tileset, etc., all of which carry over perfectly to more traditional tileset creation.

Originally Posted by Sir Ementaler

I don't think I know a single level maker which would like you to take their level, change its tileset, fix and upload as yours. I believe you can't learn anything by such practice. Also most of the levels would lose a lot of tricks, flow and eyecandy because of that, due to specific mask and tiles of each tileset. Example? Diagonal pipes in semi, like the ones below the carrot. Good luck finding a tileset which would keep carrot tricks as they are.

Okay, in CR's defense, he said not one word about uploading the levels after so editing them. His explicit comparison was to people who redraw manga pages, who I'm guessing don't then turn around and try to sell those specifically redrawn pages as original art, especially not to manga producers.

Semi is also an extreme example because it makes very specific use of certain parts of masking that I agree are not found in many other tilesets, but I doubt the same is equally true for every other level out there. If it were, to take a similarly extreme example, we wouldn't see so many Battle1 conversions. More importantly, though, I would think that even discovering that fact about Semi, that it has those diagonal pipes and that ladder with holes in the rungs on the left and everything, would itself be a useful discovery if one's looking for ideas for level creation. The ultimate goal as I understand CR's post/s is not the editing of any particular level but the in-depth study of different parts of levels brought about through the editing process. In thinking about how something would work if changed in manner x, one must necessarily think about how it works at all, what its contribution to the whole is, and so on.

Originally Posted by Sir Ementaler

I don't think I know a single level maker which would like you to take their level, change its tileset, fix and upload as yours. I believe you can't learn anything by such practice. Also most of the levels would lose a lot of tricks, flow and eyecandy because of that, due to specific mask and tiles of each tileset. Example? Diagonal pipes in semi, like the ones below the carrot. Good luck finding a tileset which would keep carrot tricks as they are.

Upload!? I did not tell about uploading edited levels.. It's just PRACTICE! To understand how level was built... Why you can't understand? I'm not going to upload it...

Sorry for getting you wrong. Alright, maybe it'd be a training for you and there's a chance you'll learn something from it. For me it still sounds like a lot of pointless work though. Well, maybe I shouldn't talk about pointless work after confessing that I used to delete most of my SP levels myself, you can ignore me, but imo it's something different - thanks to my mistakes I try to slowly form a style - you won't learn that from redrawing levels, you can only start to adapt their own style and so you might eventually lose a useful ability of thinking outside the box. I just can't imagine myself, working like a machine in the way you described. No creativity involved. But oh well, I really don't want to interfere with your choice, just go your way and I will go mine, let's see who reaches the goal first.

Originally Posted by Sir Ementaler

Well, maybe I shouldn't talk about pointless work after confessing that I used to delete most of my SP levels myself,

You should put them here instead!

Probably yes, if they didn't contain so similar story and some of the ideas as the final product. After the release of it though, I might let you play the most decent ones I resigned of. I still have some I didn't delete, and I will have a lot more before I finish the main thing; I don't like how does it look like again.