I figure posting a topic would make more sense than visiting a relatively inactive channel (#JCSTalk). I'm bringing up this topic, as blur brings up the importance of "weaker" players, as it appiles to this subject.

Half-way through the bash, a lot of players were complaining about the pitfall levels, because they have an "illogical" placement, or for whatever mysterious reasons, no one has "done it right". I agree that some pitfall levels do have illogical placement of pits, but should a pit scream out "hey! look! you will die and you will not like it! don't fall in me!" - No, pits are made for players to fall in; if they were so easy to know about, people would not fall in them.

Maybe pits could be placed in ways players only fall in them by means of other players?- That sounds like a good idea, but designing stuff like that can be hard, and ragnarok (I am not allowed to disclose much information) is attempting to do something like that.

This subject is heavily reliant on the weak and the strong. The more experienced (experienced with the level and/or overall skill) players can navigate even the most absurdly placed pits. If the pits are placed more conservatively, players may navigate them with ease, then when they get used to the level, they're pointless. In fact, some players may never get used to them, while others will. Just as Happy Semiconductor and Superconductor only appeal to a certain audience, but that audience is fairly big. The conclusion, respectfully without sounding elitest, is pits will not annoy skilled players. Hence blur's topic above, it seems that players of all classes should be considered, and the only reason I can see for conventional pits being a problem.

Very true.
I don't like pits but its not like I get annoyed by them because I never fall in them anyways whenever I try. o.O
It is why I think not to place pits at all.
Only the so called "weaker" players would hate them

Pits suck because they are simply not fun. Multiplayer is primarily about roasting each other (simplified, obviously), not about navigating skills. If I want to play a game that focuses on the latter I'll go play a test. An example of pits used in a good way is The Warden Woods, where the pit is immediately obvious as such and falling in it is usually 100% your own fault. In most levels however pits are either overused to such an extent that it is hard to remember what drop is a cliff and what isn't, or simply not distinguishable from "normal" drops. This makes falling in one a frustrating experience because you get the feeling that the level is designed as such that you couldn't have avoided the pit anyway.

The difference between other factors that need to be "learned" in multiplayer and pits is that those other factors do not punish you when you are still unfamiliar with them. This is why I personally don't have a problem with warp-based pits such as in SILWIL, Extraterrestrials or Very Stupid Floating Castle, which can actually also be used to your advantage as a quick means of travelling to a certain place. Pits on the other hand obviously do punish you as you die when you fall in one, which is frustrating.

Making pits scream "hey! look! you will die and you will not like it! don't fall in me!" as suggested in the first post is actually a good idea, since in that case it is fully the fault of the player if he falls in them (and the player will know so himself). If the pits are not obvious, players will blame the level for not making it clear that there was danger in falling at that spot. It is irrelevant whether this feeling is justified or not.

I knew this was going to happen. First blur says , "oh look everyone you can put pits in your level" everyone likes it , and now people are hateing those pits. I give up. I do agree that pits suck and ive always hated them. It would be ok on sp , but this is multiplayer the idea is to get killed by others not pits.

Basically, a level is a dish and pits are spices. Do the math here.

I'm glad someone brought this topic up and I have a number of things to say here. First of all I'm disappointed that pits are the source of so many complaints. Pits are a nice feature IMO and I've always been a fan of them not just in jj2, but other games as well. However there seem to be a number of factors present that just ruin the fun factor and add to the frustration of certain players. While playing through most of the AB10 battle levels I've been noting certain keypoints that I feel like should be the subject to some changes.

Bad design and overuse
The first thing I noticed was that pits are way overused in certain levels and in some occasions they're almost forcing you to fall into them. Eg. in ab10btl04.j2l near the center there are a number of hidden ceil springs that push you directly into a pit. If you touch those, theres not much you can do to save yourself. In some cases it's easy to fall down even for misfortunate skilled players (take ab10btl03.j2l as an example). I've found pits to be rather obscured from view, allowing unsuspecting players to easily fall for them. IMO pits should be marked with clearly visible signs, telling players to stay away, but yet allow room to fall down when you're not being careful.

Of course it may all come down to level design, but technically the level designers should consider the balance between the ease of getting roasts and the ease of losing them. It's difficult to get roasts in certain levels as it is even without pits. An ideal level (IMO) would be to let the pits have a minior influence to your score, but shouldn't act as the major factor. Just enough to count against you when some other player beats you to the score limit with those final two/three roasts.

Bugged scoring system
There was one other thing that cought my eye. After a while of playing I noticed that there's something about the scoring system. If you happen to get hit by another player shortly before falling into a pit, the system won't punish your score, but will count as a roast for the attacking player. Likewise, if another player happens to push you into a pit by bumping into you, the system won't add to his score, but will subtract from yours instead.

As a skilled player, I often do things that people wouldn't normally do. Sometimes in a battle I decide to intentionally jump into pits for various reasons. And most of the time some other player that had nothing to do with my decision will get the score.

Originally Posted by Cpp

In some cases it's easy to fall down even for misfortunate skilled players (take ab10btl03.j2l as an example)

What's ironic here is that the original level was not meant to kill people at the level bottom, and what got included in the bash loop by PurpleJazz is a seemingly untested edit with an ineptly implemented pit.

I agree that 'invisible pits' are bad level design. What Ninja Dodo had to say about deadly traps in single player:

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

If a player has no way of knowing there's a booby trap in the next room and gets killed as a result, it's unfair

really applies to any gametype in general. Especially in Hide and Seek.

It's true that most of the levels in this year's battle rotation overuse pits to a big extent (with numerous people going as far as calling the loop "XLM pit battle pack"). I just hope that the level design scene is going to learn a lesson from this.

Yeah, pits can be very fun. But they aren't used properly in most levels. So letting people know where pits are is a great idea. Having some kind of lava, water or signs is what I think is a absolute must. Also you should not just add pits randomly, it needs to have some kind of purpose, like making a power up harder to reach. You can also have a shortcut to the enemy flag where there are dead pits, so if you take the risk by taking the shortcut you will be rewarded by capturing or scoring the enemy flag much faster. So id say, go ahead use pits, but do it with purpose and think well before placing them in your level.

I think I used pits pretty good in Extraterrestrials where they are in obvious places and the river of acid let's players know that there isn't anything else down there but certain death.

Originally Posted by Speeza

everyone likes it

"everyone" being the level design scene. If many of the community were aware of the pits in the levels, I'm sure there'd have been more level selection debate in the bash thread prior to the bash.

Also, Sarcrush already said everything I was going to say.

Also, I hope that the "active level designers" can tell the difference between using pits and misusing pits. Because it's gonna be plain stupid if pits will stop being employed altogether.

I decided to also point this out: If I get thrown into a wall that contains an invisible suckertube that leads directly to a pit, that is not fun in the slightest and extremely cheap. I can only think of one level that has done this so far, but I'm throwing it out onto the table before it potentially becomes extremely popular.

lol.
"HELL YEAH, choose the right tube for the flag or else die!"

From a theoretical stand-point, death pits seem to have no obvious advantage to me. Once learned, they're easily avoided. Until then, frustration. As a rule of thumb in multiplayer, the level should be a tool the player uses to beat the other player. The player should never have to wrestle with the level to use it. In single player, it's obviously player v. the level, though, so they're more appropriate there. Given that as a player learns the level, they'll eventually avoid pits entirely, they become pointless features. Maybe you can score something from pushing somebody into a pit. But does that really justify their usage?

Oh, and if I had heard about the pit feature before this, I would have pretty much said the same thing =|

The only level where the pits have worked well is EvilMike's level which makes you score for the other team (forgotten the name). Wait, that didn't even use deathpits

...a seemingly untested edit with an ineptly implemented pit.

Sadly, true. D: Though I do assume that this indicates the pit version wasn't used the whole time?

Personally, I love pits. I can't say much on how they affect gameplay, since I'm not able to play online much, but I do agree that it should be easy to see what's a pit and what's not. Most of what everyone said I agree with, too, and forced death is annoying (ab10btl03.j2l being included). I guess everyone should just do it right. >;]

I've never had problems with pit placement before, probably because I'm not particularly picky about levels. Your idea sounds like it could evolve into a new gametype though, and that's always good.

The problem is that with a 2d platformer, pits in levels are rarely used because of the uncertanty in what defines a pit. In Unreal or Quake arena, carefully going to the edge and peeking down will tell you if jumping down is possible. In platformers, it's more of a guess, and a guess that more often then not turns into death leads to frustration, and the player joining another server.

Few of the original games use the deathpit idea in their levels. In fact, Biomenace and Duke Nukem 2 are the only games in my limited platformer knowledge that used the "Kill you at bottom of level" feature (JJ1 appears to have the same function, but in the original levels, that's more of preventive measure against bugs), but even then, it was extremely obvious to the player that falling was not a good idea.

E4L1 in DN2 was very stressing. That level, which had you swinging on the underside of a spaceship, was very frustrating due to making sure I did not fall off of the vines.

In the defense of the trick, abuse of such features is common when they first come out, until a understandable "code of conduct" is decided on for them. Just look at the evolution of the multiplayer levels in JJ2. It's rather rare now to see shields, and carrot crates / barrels in MP levels, simply because of the game balance.

Originally Posted by Cpp

If you happen to get hit by another player shortly before falling into a pit, the system won't punish your score, but will count as a roast for the attacking player.

I made it that way since (yes, I admit it) it's not particularly easy to hit someone into a pit. But I can easily reduce the amount of time before such a hit and subsequent pit death no longer counts as one player roasting another.

Originally Posted by Cpp

Likewise, if another player happens to push you into a pit by bumping into you, the system won't add to his score, but will subtract from yours instead.

I've been considering implementing roasts by pushing players into a pit for a while, but I only wanted to count actual pushes as pushes. I still don't have a lot of incentive to make it since you're much more likely to get shot into a pit than pushed if you ask me. But if you want it enough, you can make the code yourself and I'll implement it.

Right now I'm in a better position for making weapons more useful for lauching opponents into pits. For example, I could do something (as an optional feature, of course) where if you get frozen and then break free, you get flung backwards and downwards and/or temporarily lose all control.

Originally Posted by Puffie40

Few of the original games use the deathpit idea in their levels. In fact, Biomenace and Duke Nukem 2 are the only games in my limited platformer knowledge that used the "Kill you at bottom of level" feature (JJ1 appears to have the same function, but in the original levels, that's more of preventive measure against bugs), but even then, it was extremely obvious to the player that falling was not a good idea.

Cosmo, Math/Word Rescue, Mario, Sonic...

In other words basically every platformer ever except for a few weird cases (like jj2!).

Originally Posted by BlurredD

But if you want it enough, you can make the code yourself and I'll implement it.

No no, you misunderstood me there. I dislike the scoring system you're using as a whole. IMO it's too difficult to implement an accurate scoring system of this kind in jj2, specially if it's timer-based. Take it, for an example, if you're playing spaz and someone pushes you into a pit. You fall down straight into it and the opponent gets the roast. However, when playing Jazz, you can easily use the copter to trick the timer and have the score count against you. Also, a level that has very deep pits might give different results than levels with rather shallow pits.

Such scoring system is inaccurate because it relies on making assumptions and these assumptions can sometimes be wrong. I won't even attempt to code anything on this matter because I know I am bound to fail. You are welcome to try though I am just saying I (personally) dislike this approach.

In the good ol' UT99 the score always counted against you regardless of how you actually found your way down there. If you fell into a pit, you lost a frag. Period. This is an accurate scoring system. Although they've changed that in the upcoming UT games, I never really liked it either.

HINT: You could easily add a feature and ask the user what scoring system to use.

I think pits should still be used, but maybe with more thought put into it. Not just some random pits with nothing near it. Maybe some of the levels from the Bash don't use pits like they should be used, but I think that there are a few that use them properly. Well, the idea in Rumble in the Bogs with the horizontal ceiling springs seems to be too evil. And Caves of the Arabic Ninja also needs fixing. The pits in Mixxed Up were not really planned, I think the pits there aren't too bad. There is a +1 carrot on a small platform in the middle of two pits, and the third pit is near some ice ammo that can be used at players that come from the left side.

On the other hand, I think Hall of Legends uses the pits pretty well. There is a Seek PU near a pit and also a +1 carrot.

Originally Posted by BlurredD

Right now I'm in a better position for making weapons more useful for lauching opponents into pits. For example, I could do something (as an optional feature, of course) where if you get frozen and then break free, you get flung backwards and downwards and/or temporarily lose all control.

Make seekers push the shot player downwards!

Also,

Originally Posted by Cpp

I believe carrotade used the UT99 scoring system

Nope. The score for another player thing was around for a while before Carrotade was released (back then I did assume that it was a bug, too).

Originally Posted by cooba

Nope. The score for another player thing was around for a while before Carrotade was released (back then I did assume that it was a bug, too).

Carrotade didn't use the UT99 system? I thought I saw something use it here in jj2.

I think buttstomping should cause lack of mobility on the target. D:. That'll be hilarious near a pit ;D.

Yes and if you do that, add some circles above the buttstomped person's head to indicate dizziness (!)

It's a pit-y.

Originally Posted by Unknown Rabbit

Sonic

If I recall correctly, the Pre-Adventure Sonic games sparingly used pits. Otherwise I don't understand why oldschool Sonic fans hate the handheld games Sonic Advance 3 onward for their pit usage (which especially in Rush can get pretty brutal).

Originally Posted by n00b

If I recall correctly, the Pre-Adventure Sonic games sparingly used pits. Otherwise I don't understand why oldschool Sonic fans hate the handheld games Sonic Advance 3 onward for their pit usage (which especially in Rush can get pretty brutal).

Sonic 1 used them a lot. After that, not so much. Sonic 1 also happens to be quite different from the later games in level design, since it plays more like a normal platformer rather than "hold right and run really fast until you get to the boss".

if there is a boss

I recall there being a lot of pits in Rayman

Originally Posted by Cpp

No no, you misunderstood me there. I dislike the scoring system you're using as a whole. IMO it's too difficult to implement an accurate scoring system of this kind in jj2, specially if it's timer-based. Take it, for an example, if you're playing spaz and someone pushes you into a pit. You fall down straight into it and the opponent gets the roast. However, when playing Jazz, you can easily use the copter to trick the timer and have the score count against you. Also, a level that has very deep pits might give different results than levels with rather shallow pits.

It's not entirely timer-based. I do additional checks to see if a hit player has landed on a platform. In general, Jazz slowly coptering down won't change the result. Also, I can live with a little inaccuracy if it means more roasts through pits.

It would be nice if one could replace all death pits with blue springs, in one command, in case one would feel like actually enjoying playing jj2 >

Originally Posted by Wraith

Sadly, true. D: Though I do assume that this indicates the pit version wasn't used the whole time?

Personally, I love pits. I can't say much on how they affect gameplay, since I'm not able to play online much, but I do agree that it should be easy to see what's a pit and what's not. Most of what everyone said I agree with, too, and forced death is annoying (ab10btl03.j2l being included). I guess everyone should just do it right. >;]

Yeah! I got my chat messages on that screen. That version was on bash, and there was no death from the pits. When you look at the file in cache, it doesn't have pits. The one found in zip, has. Weird.

Originally Posted by BlurredD

It's not entirely timer-based. I do additional checks to see if a hit player has landed on a platform. In general, Jazz slowly coptering down won't change the result. Also, I can live with a little inaccuracy if it means more roasts through pits.

Yeah, I assumed you were doing more checks than just a timer.
Do these checks work the same way for JJ2+ and unpatched versions?

EDIT: Gry: I'm asking if the checks that blur mentioned act the same way for clients that use JJ2+ and clients that don't use JJ2+.

EDIT2: Also, could you make it so that there is an event that counts as a pit. When a player touches it, it counts as if the player fell into a pit. This event can be placed anywhere in the level.

What do you mean, Cpp

EDIT: Gotcha!

Originally Posted by Cpp

Do these checks work the same way for JJ2+ and unpatched versions?

Exactly the same way. It's the same pit system since Carrotade.

Originally Posted by Cpp

Also, could you make it so that there is an event that counts as a pit. When a player touches it, it counts as if the player fell into a pit. This event can be placed anywhere in the level.

I initially didn't want to add it partly due to issues of detecting when a player passes such an event, but I'm feeling more willing now. I'll just add warnings or something.

I'm not a fan of debates or anything so I'll keep this short.

Basically bash 10 made me realise something: I really really hate pits

--pits

Originally Posted by BlurredD

I initially didn't want to add it partly due to issues of detecting when a player passes such an event, but I'm feeling more willing now. I'll just add warnings or something.

Yes!! Now we can have pits where you would least expect it!

Just make sure you don't use event 255, it's commonly used for MCEs so it would make a lot of levels have random evil death boxes around fly carrots.

Originally Posted by Wraith

Most of what everyone said I agree with, too, and forced death is annoying (ab10btl03.j2l being included).

That...that was actually one of my favorite levels in the bash. XD The whole 'roast people while jumping from post to post and HEY DON'T FALL! ' thing just amused me to no end! (although I still get heart attacks when jumping out into the air |D)

For me, I found the pitty levels very entertaining.

Originally Posted by Puffie40

In Unreal or Quake arena, carefully going to the edge and peeking down will tell you if jumping down is possible. In platformers, it's more of a guess, and a guess that more often then not turns into death leads to frustration, and the player joining another server.

Hmm.
Your in-game lives are quite expendable, so there's no real penalty for doing a test-jump to see if that's a pit or not. (Does losing a life reduce your roast-score? I must admit that I don't know. Still, it's not -that- hard to make up for, unless you're in a particularly intense duel.)

I guess disappearing for a number of years has stripped away my serious business-sense. ^^

Self-destructing on pits does make you lose a point.
Say for example, You have six roasts, and jump into a pit. You now have five roasts.